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	<title>Comments on: Peachtree Streetcar vision isn&#8217;t dead yet</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/2009/07/07/peachtree-streetcar-vision-isnt-dead-yet/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/2009/07/07/peachtree-streetcar-vision-isnt-dead-yet/</link>
	<description>Atlanta news and views, one slice at a time</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:47:16 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Joeventures</title>
		<link>http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/2009/07/07/peachtree-streetcar-vision-isnt-dead-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-106980</link>
		<dc:creator>Joeventures</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/?p=21911#comment-106980</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;from a 3 mill tax on condos only within 3 blocks&lt;/i&gt;

This is not entirely true, but it does speak to the intention of the proposed tax district.

The district was drawn to extend a quarter-mile in every direction from the streetcar line. However, instead of drawing the line strictly according to distance, they drew the line according to neighborhood borders.

When asked about this, Ray Christman explained two reasons: first, because it&#039;s easier; second, to help preserve single family homes that are within the quarter-mile distance.

Both reasons are clearly a bunch of crap. The district boundaries could have been extended -- the benefits of the trolley clearly extend beyond the quarter-mile border. Also, single family homes are not suddenly going to be rezoned just because they fall within a tax district.

To me, it really seems to be a big mistake to be so willing to forego the good will of those falling within the tax district for the sake of appeasing single family homeowners.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>from a 3 mill tax on condos only within 3 blocks</i></p>
<p>This is not entirely true, but it does speak to the intention of the proposed tax district.</p>
<p>The district was drawn to extend a quarter-mile in every direction from the streetcar line. However, instead of drawing the line strictly according to distance, they drew the line according to neighborhood borders.</p>
<p>When asked about this, Ray Christman explained two reasons: first, because it&#8217;s easier; second, to help preserve single family homes that are within the quarter-mile distance.</p>
<p>Both reasons are clearly a bunch of crap. The district boundaries could have been extended &#8212; the benefits of the trolley clearly extend beyond the quarter-mile border. Also, single family homes are not suddenly going to be rezoned just because they fall within a tax district.</p>
<p>To me, it really seems to be a big mistake to be so willing to forego the good will of those falling within the tax district for the sake of appeasing single family homeowners.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilbur</title>
		<link>http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/2009/07/07/peachtree-streetcar-vision-isnt-dead-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-106975</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilbur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/?p=21911#comment-106975</guid>
		<description>Markat Twelve - but there is plenty of development in the area serviced by the streetcar in Portland now.  In fact, the Pearl District went from being craptastic warehouses to one of the nicest parts of downtown for living and working.  And the streetcar is a major mode of transportation for people living and working there. (yes, Matt, even the ones that live in the insanely expensive Pearl District Condos)  I took it, daily, for years. It was clean, easy and reliable, and I wasn&#039;t paying for or dealing with gas, traffic or parking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Markat Twelve &#8211; but there is plenty of development in the area serviced by the streetcar in Portland now.  In fact, the Pearl District went from being craptastic warehouses to one of the nicest parts of downtown for living and working.  And the streetcar is a major mode of transportation for people living and working there. (yes, Matt, even the ones that live in the insanely expensive Pearl District Condos)  I took it, daily, for years. It was clean, easy and reliable, and I wasn&#8217;t paying for or dealing with gas, traffic or parking.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkatTwelve</title>
		<link>http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/2009/07/07/peachtree-streetcar-vision-isnt-dead-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-106898</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkatTwelve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 19:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/?p=21911#comment-106898</guid>
		<description>The problem with the trolley is that the initial funding was to come from a 3 mill tax on condos only within 3 blocks of Peachtree.  Further that the PCP funded report stated that very little in the way of new development would come.  Portland, the model for development driven by a trolley, built theirs in an area without development.  That is not the case along nearly all of Peachtree.  
This is a want not a need that the city is asking a few not the many to fund.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with the trolley is that the initial funding was to come from a 3 mill tax on condos only within 3 blocks of Peachtree.  Further that the PCP funded report stated that very little in the way of new development would come.  Portland, the model for development driven by a trolley, built theirs in an area without development.  That is not the case along nearly all of Peachtree.<br />
This is a want not a need that the city is asking a few not the many to fund.</p>
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		<title>By: New Yorker, sitting pretty</title>
		<link>http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/2009/07/07/peachtree-streetcar-vision-isnt-dead-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-106850</link>
		<dc:creator>New Yorker, sitting pretty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/?p=21911#comment-106850</guid>
		<description>Hahaha. Some silly Atlantans don&#039;t realize that a streetcar actually removes other cars from the street. You are building high rise buildings. There is simply no way the roads will be able to handle the congestion if everyone drives. Transit is the only option. Any world class city has a world class transit system. I live in New York, which simply could not have developed without the subways and buses. Enjoy higher gas prices, suckers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hahaha. Some silly Atlantans don&#8217;t realize that a streetcar actually removes other cars from the street. You are building high rise buildings. There is simply no way the roads will be able to handle the congestion if everyone drives. Transit is the only option. Any world class city has a world class transit system. I live in New York, which simply could not have developed without the subways and buses. Enjoy higher gas prices, suckers.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/2009/07/07/peachtree-streetcar-vision-isnt-dead-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-106798</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:35:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/?p=21911#comment-106798</guid>
		<description>Nadia - 

I live on that block of Juniper as well, and it&#039;s been my assumption that the developer of the new high rise building would repave the street once they finish construction (which is getting much closer by the looks of it).  That may be a naive assumption, but it&#039;s their trucks and construction vehicles that have torn it up.  

I can say this, I could use Juniper a lot less if there was a streetcar on PT.  If it were to connect to a future streetcar line on Ponce that would be incredible.  Also, Adam&#039;s comments have been right on and are much appreciated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nadia &#8211; </p>
<p>I live on that block of Juniper as well, and it&#8217;s been my assumption that the developer of the new high rise building would repave the street once they finish construction (which is getting much closer by the looks of it).  That may be a naive assumption, but it&#8217;s their trucks and construction vehicles that have torn it up.  </p>
<p>I can say this, I could use Juniper a lot less if there was a streetcar on PT.  If it were to connect to a future streetcar line on Ponce that would be incredible.  Also, Adam&#8217;s comments have been right on and are much appreciated.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/2009/07/07/peachtree-streetcar-vision-isnt-dead-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-106774</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:23:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/?p=21911#comment-106774</guid>
		<description>Adam-

I agree with everything you said, but you missed some things. Because streetcars run on rails, their routes are (more or less) permanent and easy to understand. The permanence of streetcar lines encourages development along the line, and the ease of understanding encourages strangers to the system to ride. In addition, people just seem to be more comfortable with riding trains.

All of this is despite the obvious energy benefits and you have a clear victor. 

The original rise of the bus in place of streetcar lines was not natural; it was a result of  cheap gasoline, spread out cities and a scheme to get people to buy cars due to the bus&#039;s low desirability (for more, read http://www.ejnet.org/rachel/rehw439.htm ). There is mounting evidence that we will be living in a much more energy scarce world in the coming years, so all three of those factors will soon be out of the window. I wholeheartedly believe that streetcars will become more and more utilized in coming years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam-</p>
<p>I agree with everything you said, but you missed some things. Because streetcars run on rails, their routes are (more or less) permanent and easy to understand. The permanence of streetcar lines encourages development along the line, and the ease of understanding encourages strangers to the system to ride. In addition, people just seem to be more comfortable with riding trains.</p>
<p>All of this is despite the obvious energy benefits and you have a clear victor. </p>
<p>The original rise of the bus in place of streetcar lines was not natural; it was a result of  cheap gasoline, spread out cities and a scheme to get people to buy cars due to the bus&#8217;s low desirability (for more, read <a href="http://www.ejnet.org/rachel/rehw439.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.ejnet.org/rachel/rehw439.htm</a> ). There is mounting evidence that we will be living in a much more energy scarce world in the coming years, so all three of those factors will soon be out of the window. I wholeheartedly believe that streetcars will become more and more utilized in coming years.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/2009/07/07/peachtree-streetcar-vision-isnt-dead-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-106766</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 21:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/?p=21911#comment-106766</guid>
		<description>BPJ - 

While you have a valid point about the cost/benefit of providing a better bus on Peachtree over a streetcar, I think you overlook the benefits a train/streetcar/light rail has over a bus - in particular 1) its lack of stigma and 2) its benefits to tourism.    

The simple fact is that busses carry with them a stigma causing people to not ride them.  In nearly every city where rail replaced a bus-line, ridership increased dramatically. The new rail line was never dramatically faster or even more convenient - your typical rider just doesn&#039;t like busses (probably for very, very baseless reasons).

An even better reason would be to expand tourist access to other parts of ATL.  Your average aquarium visitor or conference goer would never venture to the High Museum on a bus.  Never. Not in a million years.  Throw a rail line down on peachtree, and suddenly that same tourist is swept all over the city, just for the simple thrill of riding a stupid train.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BPJ &#8211; </p>
<p>While you have a valid point about the cost/benefit of providing a better bus on Peachtree over a streetcar, I think you overlook the benefits a train/streetcar/light rail has over a bus &#8211; in particular 1) its lack of stigma and 2) its benefits to tourism.    </p>
<p>The simple fact is that busses carry with them a stigma causing people to not ride them.  In nearly every city where rail replaced a bus-line, ridership increased dramatically. The new rail line was never dramatically faster or even more convenient &#8211; your typical rider just doesn&#8217;t like busses (probably for very, very baseless reasons).</p>
<p>An even better reason would be to expand tourist access to other parts of ATL.  Your average aquarium visitor or conference goer would never venture to the High Museum on a bus.  Never. Not in a million years.  Throw a rail line down on peachtree, and suddenly that same tourist is swept all over the city, just for the simple thrill of riding a stupid train.</p>
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		<title>By: jc</title>
		<link>http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/2009/07/07/peachtree-streetcar-vision-isnt-dead-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-106765</link>
		<dc:creator>jc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/?p=21911#comment-106765</guid>
		<description>so move dude.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>so move dude.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/2009/07/07/peachtree-streetcar-vision-isnt-dead-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-106764</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/?p=21911#comment-106764</guid>
		<description>What is wrong with this city? Really?!  We want to be this cosmopolitan city, but we remain 2nd tier.

The Beltline - great idea, but probably will never happen. 

Streetcars - excellent idea that helped Portland, OR, transform itself into a really cool city; the same could happen here. 

MARTA - we have the same train system as DC, but it is a joke.  The rail line needs to extend into all metro areas and look like a spider web, not a + sign. If the train actually took people to many different places in and around the city, it would be utilized.

This city needs to think and act on a bigger scale. It&#039;s really continuing to fall behind other cities in terms of transportation, the arts, livability, nightlife, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is wrong with this city? Really?!  We want to be this cosmopolitan city, but we remain 2nd tier.</p>
<p>The Beltline &#8211; great idea, but probably will never happen. </p>
<p>Streetcars &#8211; excellent idea that helped Portland, OR, transform itself into a really cool city; the same could happen here. </p>
<p>MARTA &#8211; we have the same train system as DC, but it is a joke.  The rail line needs to extend into all metro areas and look like a spider web, not a + sign. If the train actually took people to many different places in and around the city, it would be utilized.</p>
<p>This city needs to think and act on a bigger scale. It&#8217;s really continuing to fall behind other cities in terms of transportation, the arts, livability, nightlife, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: BPJ</title>
		<link>http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/2009/07/07/peachtree-streetcar-vision-isnt-dead-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-106762</link>
		<dc:creator>BPJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:50:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/?p=21911#comment-106762</guid>
		<description>I like the streetcar plan, and I think it would be a great thing for the city. However, I&#039;m not convinced it&#039;s the best use of available funds (federal stimulus or otherwise). The main problem with the current &quot;Peach&quot; bus on Peachtree Street (&amp; Road) is that it is scheduled to come by every 30 minutes. For people with choices, that makes it irrelevant. No one with a choice will wait 25 minutes for a bus.

 A much smaller amount of money could be used to subsidize a nice bus that comes by every 10 minutes. After a few years of demonstrated performance, such a bus would be very popular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the streetcar plan, and I think it would be a great thing for the city. However, I&#8217;m not convinced it&#8217;s the best use of available funds (federal stimulus or otherwise). The main problem with the current &#8220;Peach&#8221; bus on Peachtree Street (&amp; Road) is that it is scheduled to come by every 30 minutes. For people with choices, that makes it irrelevant. No one with a choice will wait 25 minutes for a bus.</p>
<p> A much smaller amount of money could be used to subsidize a nice bus that comes by every 10 minutes. After a few years of demonstrated performance, such a bus would be very popular.</p>
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